{"id":11295,"date":"2024-05-30T12:00:25","date_gmt":"2024-05-30T12:00:25","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/05\/30\/narrative-journalism-editing-empathy-listening-story-craft\/"},"modified":"2025-02-04T15:08:20","modified_gmt":"2025-02-04T15:08:20","slug":"narrative-journalism-editing-empathy-listening-story-craft","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/05\/30\/narrative-journalism-editing-empathy-listening-story-craft\/","title":{"rendered":"Effective editing: Word skills, listening skills and people skills"},"content":{"rendered":" \n
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EDITOR\u2019S NOTE: The interview with Mike Wilson of The New York Times is another in our occasional series \u201cWhat makes a good editor\u201d and will be followed by his annotation of a story by Chicago correspondent Jonathan Weisman, about the political rift in a Colorado mountain town.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Mike Wilson was first scouted for his editing prowess when an editor on deadline tapped him for a witty headline suggestion. But Wilson, then in his late 20s and a reporter at The Miami Herald\u2019s Tropic magazine, didn\u2019t care to stray from writing. It was several years before he stepped formally into an editing role as a features editor for the St. Petersburg Times (now The Tampa Bay Times).<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Wilson, now 63, has spent the last two decades as an editor, primarily helping writers shape ambitious features and enterprise work. Some career highlights include editing \u201cThe Girl in the Window<\/a>,\u201d a story which won Lane DeGregory the Pulitzer Prize for feature writing in 2009. Three other members of Wilson\u2019s feature writing staff were finalists for Pulitzers in feature writing during his tenure at the Tampa Bay Times. He later became top editor of The Dallas Morning News for six years, where he edited \u201cStandoff<\/a>,\u201d for which Jamie Thompson won the Edward R. Murrow Award for excellence in writing. In 2021, he joined The New York Times as deputy editor for sports enterprise and investigations.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\"Mike
Mike Wilson<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/div> \n
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Wilson now acts as deputy editor for \u201cThe Great Read<\/a>,\u201d which serves up one curated story a day that\u2019s handpicked for The Times homepage \u2014 meant to surprise, delight and engage readers through narrative storytelling. In announcing his move<\/a> to the Great Read, editor Claire Gutierrez described him as \u201ca nurturing editor who took time to make every reporter better, no matter where they were in their careers.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Storyboard reached out to Wilson to discuss how editors navigate a complex orbit of relationships, his hands-on approach to coaching writers and shaping language, and how editing has driven his personal growth as a human, friend, parent and partner. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What drew you to editing after so many years as a writer?
<\/strong>When I started my career, I wasn\u2019t interested in editing at all. I was purely interested in being a writer. I\u2019ve never stopped thinking of myself as a writer to some degree \u2014 even though for the last 20 years or so, I\u2019ve made a living almost exclusively as an editor. At the Miami Herald, I had a couple of editors who were so helpful to me, so inspiring, that I started to see the value of what an editor could offer as a collaborator. I felt like they were partners on my stories \u2014 that it was impossible for me to publish anything terrible because they were with me. On my own, I could definitely publish something terrible \u2014 but with them, I couldn\u2019t. When I started thinking about editing, that\u2019s what I wanted to be for other people.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What prompted you to start thinking about it?
<\/strong>The editor of Tropic magazine when I was at the Miami Herald was Gene Weingarten<\/a>, who went on to win a couple of Pulitzers as a feature writer and then editor of the Washington Post Magazine. There was one day when Gene was writing a headline for Tropic about how the NRA was marketing weapons to older people. And he said, \u2018Wilson, I need a headline for this story. Here\u2019s what it\u2019s about.\u2019 I thought for a second and said, \u2018Granny, get your gun.\u2019 And he shouted, \u2018Oh, my God. You\u2019re an editor!\u2019 I think he just wanted me to feel good, but he was recognizing that I thought conceptually about things in a way that is helpful for editors. Actually, my reaction to him was, \u2018To hell that I\u2019m an editor. I just want to write.\u2019<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Later, I was firmly mid-career as a feature writer at the St. Petersburg Times. The person in charge of the department moved to another position. I raised my hand because I thought I could make a difference. I thought I had a good idea of what a good story sounded like. I was excited about talking to other writers and editors about that.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Do you think it\u2019s important for a good editor to have writing experience? Does being a strong writer affect how you conceptualize stories and frame them as an editor?
<\/strong>Writers and editors need both writing and editing skills. From a pure craft perspective, it\u2019s good for me to be able to write good sentences. Because when I\u2019m editing other stories, I\u2019m writing in<\/em> their stories \u2014 not because I want my words in them, but because I want to try to provide the connective tissue between one idea and another. If the language I choose is in the right style and sound and works for the writer, that\u2019s fine. If it\u2019s not, then they can fill it in with their own sound \u2014 but it\u2019s still bridging the same gap.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Can you talk about the section that you currently edit at The New York Times? What makes those stories sparkle, and what\u2019s your mission and mandate in this role?
<\/strong>\u2018The Great Read\u2019 is featured on the homepage of The New York Times every day except Saturdays. It goes up during the week at noon (Eastern time) and stays up for about 12 hours. On Sunday, it goes up at 6 a.m. There\u2019s a high likelihood the story will be well read because we have nearly 10 million subscribers around the world, so a lot of writers and editors want their pieces to occupy that space.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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The idea of \u2018The Great Read\u2019 is that it\u2019s the best thing, or one of the best things, The New York Times has to offer as a reading experience that day. It\u2019s a little bit distinct from even a very rich news article about an important subject. It\u2019s not just about the delivery of information, but the experience of reading that information \u2014 the telling of a story within it. It\u2019s where we tell our stories that are narratives, where we publish richly written profiles that are full of scenes and characters and dialogue. It\u2019s a bit of a cousin to what we do as journalists every day.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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It almost feels like you\u2019re describing a really elaborate dessert. Maybe it has more nutritional value than dessert, but it\u2019s something that readers can really look forward to and relish in.
<\/strong>I love that. It could be dessert, or it could hopefully be a five-star chef\u2019s meal \u2014 super nutritious, but also unlike anything you ate last week.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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When you think about some of your favorite writers to edit, what qualities do they embody or share? And what kinds of stories?
<\/strong>The first includes writers who have a deep commitment to the work. That crowds out some of the things that can be an obstacle \u2014 like my ego as a writer, or my fears as a writer or editor. I think there\u2019s good chemistry if both people involved are trying to get the best outcome for the story and for the reader.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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There\u2019s a dynamic that I\u2019ve noticed in editing relationships, where the reporter goes out and marshals this massive amount of information \u2014 80% or 90% of which will never be in the story. It\u2019s their responsibility to try to sort that out, and in the initial go around, leave out what doesn\u2019t need to be there and what does. And, of course, to know the name and age of everybody in the story, the spelling of their name, and every little detail. The editor has the luxury of not being so steeped, so awash, in those details. The editor has the ability to sit back and ask, \u2018What are we trying to say in the big picture? Are we getting at it?\u2019<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I often can\u2019t even remember the names of characters in some of my writers\u2019 stories. It becomes \u2018a mother\u2019 or \u2018the left wing in hockey.\u2019 But I\u2019m looking for a reporter who knows the story cold, and who is really invested in understanding it and pouring everything they can into it, so that I can come in after the fact and try to add some perspective to the whole thing. I\u2019ve had very few experiences where the reporter was so \u2018word proud\u2019 that they didn\u2019t want you to change anything.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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How would you describe your process, particularly when you\u2019re assigning a story or conceptualizing an idea?
<\/strong>I have to be honest for any journalist reading this \u2014 there have been plenty of times in my career when the approach was, \u2018Oh my God, we need a fast profile on this person in the news. Can you get it to me by three o\u2019clock tomorrow?\u2019 There\u2019s hardly any discussion and everybody runs around with their hair on fire because that\u2019s what journalism is like.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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When we have a second, then it doesn\u2019t really matter who has the idea, as long as the reporter and I agree that this is a story we should be doing. Usually it starts with a conversation about what we know about the idea, what we think the reporting tracks might be to realize it fully and what core questions that we want to be asking. Maybe there\u2019s even some conversation about what doesn\u2019t<\/em> matter. Like \u2018We know we\u2019re not doing X here because that\u2019s been done, or readers won\u2019t be interested in it.\u2019 But we are doing Y, and how do we get to Y?\u2019<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Walk me through the process when copy reaches your desk.
<\/strong>The reporter goes off and starts working, and I go to 100 meetings and talk to other reporters and do dumb things that editors do. The reporter comes back and fills me in on how things went: \u2018They said this, and they said that. And I found out this, and I found out that.\u2019 That\u2019s the part where the thought partnership starts to become really useful. My job in that situation is almost to replay back to them what they said, like, \u2018What I hear you saying is the story seems to be about X thing and that it makes X point.\u2019 They\u2019ll either go, \u2018Yeah, that\u2019s just it,\u2019 or they\u2019ll go, \u2018Oh no, it\u2019s not that.<\/em> It\u2019s this<\/em>.\u2019 Together, we get to the right \u2014 or a more right \u2014 idea of what we\u2019re doing. We may go back and forth a few times. They may have to report quite a bit more. We might have a conversation at my desk, or over lunch, or by phone or by text.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Ideally we\u2019ll have a conversation before the writer starts writing, probing for the heart of the story. Sometimes I ask them to think conceptually: \u2018If there were a headline for this story, what do you think it\u2019s going to be?\u2019 The goal is to help us focus on whatever it is at the heart of the thing. Then they go off and write. Their writing process may take them on a straight line to where we think we\u2019re going, or it may make them realize they don\u2019t know enough, or it may reveal a fatal flaw in the way we\u2019ve been thinking about it.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Some editors are more hands-on than others. How do you balance engaging with your writers and shaping their ideas or copy, and also maintaining a light touch? What is your approach to that tension in general?
<\/strong>I\u2019m very hands-on. I come to the act of editing as a writer. But again, not with the aim of getting my words into the story. Most stories come in \u2014 especially the ones I still write \u2014 and they\u2019re like a quilt with holes in it, with light showing through. What I\u2019m doing as an editor is stitching up those holes in different ways, connecting one piece of fabric to another, in a way that feels right. But when it goes back to the writer, I always say, \u2018This is your story. If I\u2019ve done something here that isn\u2019t you, or is just wrong, God help us, then fix it or show me a different way. But the idea we\u2019re going for is X.\u2019<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I\u2019ve had very effective editors who made me very uncomfortable and got good work out of me by doing that. But that\u2019s just not what I do.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I\u2019m a diplomat by nature, as an editor and as a person, which means that I like people to be comfortable and feel good around me. I\u2019ve had very effective editors who made me very uncomfortable and got good work out of me by doing that. But that\u2019s just not what I do. I like people to feel that they\u2019re okay, that this is going fine, that we\u2019re going to get there together. There\u2019s an old definition of being a diplomat, which is, \u2018You tell someone to go to hell in a way that they\u2019ll enjoy the trip.\u2019<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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While I\u2019m a diplomat, I also have standards and expectations that I try to convey in a way that people can hear.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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W<\/strong>hat bigger-picture thinking does your job involve beyond working with writers directly?
<\/strong>I edit people, right? My collaborations with writers have to do with everything that\u2019s happening to them. Often that includes what\u2019s happening in their life. How are their kids doing? How are they feeling about their job, their professional lives or anything going on personally that they want to share? You have to make room for people to have a freakout during a difficult story, or talk about how they don\u2019t know what to do next or that they feel like they\u2019re never going to get that interview they need. I try to support them through that process.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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It sounds like you\u2019re a little bit of a coach, counselor and therapist, kind of guiding and nudging them along.
<\/strong>Definitely a coach. Hopefully a friend. I\u2019m certainly not qualified to be a therapist, but I recognize that it\u2019s a person doing this job. As much as you would be more efficient if we were all just perfectly professional all the time, I\u2019m not and they\u2019re not. We get there as a team.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Where would you direct writers looking to gain editing skills, or editors who want to become better editors? For folks on staff and freelancers, what are some good ways to practice the needed skill set \u2014 both the diplomacy and also the act of conceptualizing the story?
<\/strong>It really starts with reading. Obviously reading a lot of the kind of journalism you\u2019re practicing. But also reading books. Reading good writing is essential training for editors \u2014 paying attention to how the great ones do it. I would recommend an editing stint of some length of time \u2014 even three months \u2014 for any writer, because I think you grow so much as a writer by being an editor.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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As a writer, you\u2019d have one perspective on how to do it. Once you edit even a half a dozen people, you see how differently each one approaches the reporting and writing processes. Maybe they outline and maybe they\u2019re winging it. Maybe they have to be in a panic in the middle of the night before they can write anything. People create all kinds of situations in which they thrive. You learn a lot of empathy from being an editor.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I\u2019ve often said that I spent my first year as an editor atoning for the sins I committed as a writer. I think I was cavalier about deadlines and story length. I didn\u2019t think about the pressures editors were under from their bosses or what else they had to worry about besides me and and making sure that my facts were right. I was a little too casual about those things. Becoming an editor and having that happen to me made me feel a little bad about not being more careful as a writer.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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It\u2019s been the most important personal growth experience I\u2019ve had outside of being a husband and a parent.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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In terms of where to practice \u2014 in a lot of the history of our business, you became an editor because you were a good reporter or photographer. It was kind of a promotion and there was not a lot of regard given to whether you had the technical skills \u2014 or, God knows, the personal skills. But I will say, as a proud member of the National Advisory Board of the Poynter Institute, Poynter and other institutions have some really good programs for people who want to make that transition<\/a>. For anybody serious about it, I recommend even an online Poynter course about what to expect in your first year as an assigning editor. I also know that a lot of newsrooms have started to recognize that putting people in editing jobs without any training is a little fraught. Some are now having discussion groups or even formal training programs.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I\u2019m struck by the fact that an editor is a thought partner to the writer, but you\u2019re also standing in for the reader while balancing organizational concerns and top-down mandates. Can you tell me a little bit about the managerial skills that come with this job and how you serve the interests of all those different parties?
<\/strong>There\u2019s this fundamental change in your work when you move from writer to editor. As a writer, you\u2019re basically managing a one-on-one relationship with an editor. As an editor, I think of the Harlem Globetrotters<\/a> routine where the one guy is in the center of the circle. He\u2019s passing the ball and all of these people are passing the ball back to him. As soon as you become an editor, you\u2019re orbited by all these other people: other editors, your bosses, other writers you work with, the photo editor, the social media people. Suddenly, you\u2019re managing all these other relationships. It requires a lot of patience, skill and understanding.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What are some essential qualities to having an aptitude for this work and also enjoying it?
<\/strong>Being able to listen and willing to listen, to really hear what a writer is saying, and then to play it back to them and ask if you have it right. I do think that developing really good word skills, both as a writer and an editor, is important. If you\u2019ve been a great police reporter, for example, and all your stories have been rewritten since the beginning of time \u2014 because reporting is really your thing and not writing \u2014 then you can go so far as an editor, but you\u2019re probably not going to be a really good narrative editor or investigations editor, where long stories have to be crafted. Developing those fine writing and editing skills is really important.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What has surprised you most about this path?
<\/strong>The amount of self-discovery. Not so much what I\u2019ve learned about journalism, but what I\u2019ve learned about myself, and how I operate and think. It\u2019s been the most important personal growth experience I\u2019ve had outside of being a husband and a parent.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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The questions that come up for me every day in my work are things like: How patient are you? How well can you express a conceptual thought to somebody else? How effectively can you express a criticism so that a person will hear it, and still have the strength and will to go on?<\/em> Those are all tests of me personally. Every day is full of these ways in which I\u2019m challenged to be a good person, and a good word person.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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These are ideals I\u2019m talking about. I\u2019m aware I need to do these things, but I totally leave it up to other people \u2014 my wife, my family and all that \u2014 to say, \u2018Am I doing any fucking good at any of it?\u2019 But I enjoy the challenge of trying to do those things: trying to be a good guy as I\u2019m being a good editor.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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* * *<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Carly Stern<\/strong> is an award-winning enterprise journalist based in San Francisco who covers health, housing and economic security.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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