{"id":11360,"date":"2024-07-11T22:05:06","date_gmt":"2024-07-11T22:05:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/07\/11\/editing-trust-emotional-intelligence-investigative-journalism-narrative-propublica\/"},"modified":"2024-10-16T20:44:56","modified_gmt":"2024-10-16T20:44:56","slug":"editing-trust-emotional-intelligence-investigative-journalism-narrative-propublica","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/07\/11\/editing-trust-emotional-intelligence-investigative-journalism-narrative-propublica\/","title":{"rendered":"Effective editing: Trust and Ted Lasso-style cheerleading"},"content":{"rendered":"    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><em>EDITOR\u2019S NOTE: For other posts in the occasional series about effective editing, read our interviews with&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/stories\/narrative-journalism-editing-empathy-listening-story-craft\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Mike Wilson of The New York Times,<\/a><\/em>&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/stories\/journalism-editing-writing-storycraft\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\"><em>Scott Stossel of The Atlantic<\/em><\/a><em>&nbsp;and&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/stories\/editing-writing-reporting-trust\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Lynda Robinson of The Washington Post<\/a>. This interview, with Alexandra Zayas of ProPublica, is followed by the&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/stories\/investigative-journalism-editing-mental-health-military\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">annotation of a project<\/a>&nbsp;Zayas edited.<\/em><\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p class=\"has-drop-cap\">Alexandra Zayas was exposed to the power of local news at a young age. She grew up in Miami and spent much of her adult life in South Florida. \u201cMiami is just a wild news town,\u201d said Zayas, who is now 41 and lives in New Jersey. \u201cI recall just constantly being surrounded by historic events,\u201d she said, from\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.miamiherald.com\/news\/weather\/hurricane\/article278521544.html\">Hurricane Andrew in 1992<\/a>\u00a0to the\u00a0<a href=\"https:\/\/www.pulitzer.org\/winners\/staff-48\">Elian Gonzalez crisis<\/a>\u00a0around the turn of the century.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Following the powerful reporting of The Miami Herald back then gave Zayas a sense that journalists had an exciting front-row seat to history. While studying at the University of Miami, Zayas\u2019 professor \u2014 an editor at The Herald \u2014 helped her find freelancing opportunities at the paper. She covered a neighborhood beat as a college student before pursuing an internship with the Minneapolis Star Tribune in 2005.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n<div class=\"wp-block-image\">    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-image mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<figure class=\"alignright size-full is-resized\"><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" width=\"305\" height=\"305\" src=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219.png\" alt=\"ProPublica deputy managing editor and investigative reporter Alexandra Zayas\" class=\"wp-image-11364\" style=\"width:200px\" srcset=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219.png 305w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-300x300.png 300w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-150x150.png 150w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-40x40.png 40w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-100x100.png 100w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-200x200.png 200w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-180x180.png 180w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-115x115.png 115w, https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/app\/uploads\/2024\/10\/Screenshot-2024-07-11-at-2.34.45\u202fPM-e1720733728820-1-e1729111410219-230x230.png 230w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 305px) 100vw, 305px\" \/><figcaption class=\"wp-element-caption\">Alexandra Zayas<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n<\/div>    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Zayas then found her way to The Tampa Bay Times, where she grounded and elevated her journalistic skills \u2014 first as an intern, then as a reporter across a wide suite of roles that spanned breaking news reporting, enterprise reporting and investigative reporting, and ultimately as an enterprise editor. In 2017, she joined ProPublica as a senior editor.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>At ProPublica, Zayas has risen into the ranks of the leadership team to become deputy managing editor. She coaches reporters and editors within ProPublica and in the newsrooms it partners with on projects. She helped lead ProPublica\u2019s second-annual&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.propublica.org\/article\/propublica-investigative-editor-training-program-2024\">investigative editor training<\/a>, a boot camp where newsroom staff trains up to 10 editors from around the country.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Storyboard connected with Zayas to discuss how editors can demonstrate their impact on a story, her comprehensive pre-writing process and why trust is the bedrock of reporter-editor partnerships. Our conversation has been edited for length and clarity.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>What prompted or spurred that shift from enterprise\/investigative reporting into enterprise editing? And what seemed appealing about editing after being a reporter for so long?<br><\/strong>I had a life-changing experience with an editor as a reporter when I worked with&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.linkedin.com\/in\/chris-davis-989aa26a\/\">Chris Davis<\/a>, who is now an editor with The New York Times\u2019&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poynter.org\/reporting-editing\/2023\/how-the-new-york-times-is-helping-local-journalists-with-tons-of-ideas-and-no-time\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Local Reporting Project<\/a>. I had never done an investigative project in my life \u2014 I fancied myself an enterprise reporter and was very drawn to narratives. I ended up working on an investigation called \u201c<a href=\"https:\/\/www.pulitzer.org\/finalists\/alexandra-zayas\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">In God\u2019s Name<\/a>\u201d in 2012, about how a religious exemption created by the Florida legislature in the 1980s allowed religious group homes for kids that were almost like religious boarding schools. They were places you would send a \u2018bad kid\u2019 to be reformed with no government oversight, essentially putting oversight into the hands of preachers policing themselves.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>I was paired with this investigative editor who really evangelized me and showed me that not only could I do investigative journalism, but also that investigative journalism was capable of making a change in the world. The idea that your work was not just to inform, but could change lives, was something he opened my eyes to. I had other editors who thought I was a good writer and put my stories on the front page. But Chris was never satisfied. He was constantly wanting to know if I had better examples or if I had gotten better access. He was interrogating my understanding of everything and forced me to set a far higher bar for myself than I thought I was capable of. That generosity \u2014 his patience and his dedication, the spirit of partnership and teamwork I felt from him \u2014 not only evangelized me to fall in love with investigative reporting, but also showed me how much impact you could have as an editor.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>I didn\u2019t immediately become an editor, in part because I wanted to keep learning from Chris, so I joined the investigations team and worked under him. I fell in love with that sense of team spirit \u2014 the idea that you\u2019re in it with somebody, you\u2019re talking every day about what you\u2019ve got, you\u2019re really stressed out sometimes and you\u2019re really victorious sometimes. I ended up liking the relationship part of my job more than the \u2018going and finding out stuff\u2019 part. I realized the relationship part of the job is a huge part of being an editor. So little by little, I started thinking I wanted to be an editor.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>Can you share more about what skills are required to be a good editor? What parts of your brain do you have to tap?<br><\/strong>When I became a senior editor at ProPublica, it became clear that editing is not just looking at a piece of writing and figuring out how it can be better, or how it can be structured better, or written in a prettier way. It\u2019s really about pretending the page is blank and trying to conjure out of the universe the best possible version of this story \u2014 then working with the reporter to figure out how to get that. It involves asking: \u2018Do we even have all of the best possible material? The writing is really pretty, but is it actually true? Is it the most logical argument we can make? What are the fatal flaws buried under this pretty writing?\u2019 It\u2019s like an X-ray reading, seeing beyond what\u2019s on the page to what the possibilities are.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>How did you develop those skills?<br><\/strong>My mantra was \u2018I made a mistake a day.\u2019 As an enterprise editor at The Tampa Bay Times, I was editing my friends, essentially, but that really only lasted for six to eight months because I took a job with ProPublica soon after. When I was an investigative editor, I was remembering all of the stuff Chris taught me about how to put together a bulletproof investigation. But it was really a lot of&nbsp;<em>not&nbsp;<\/em>asking reporters all of the questions I needed to ask and then being blindsided in the end with something that I should have asked at the beginning. With stuff like that, you just honestly have to make those mistakes.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-pullquote mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\"><blockquote><p>It\u2019s really about pretending the page is blank and trying to conjure out of the universe the best possible version of this story \u2014 then working with the reporter to figure out how to get that.<\/p><\/blockquote><\/figure>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>So you\u2019d been an editor for less than a year before the ProPublica job. How did sell your abilities for that job? And what made it appealing to you?<br><\/strong>ProPublica had offered me a job four years earlier, after \u2018In God\u2019s Name.\u2019 I turned it down because I didn\u2019t feel like I was fully done being an investigative reporter under Chris. But I stayed in close touch with the managing editor there, Robin Fields, and we were constantly talking about different opportunities. This was right after Donald Trump got elected and there was a real hunger to put resources into investigative reporting. The New York Times and ProPublica offered me jobs the same week.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Both of those offers were for editing jobs. I think people liked my investigative experience and the fact that I had edited narrative. To be able to do both of those things is an increasingly desired skill set. I shared before-and-after drafts of some stories I had edited. One I was very proud of was by Kat (Kathleen) McCrory on a victim of the&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/projects.tampabay.com\/projects\/2016\/features\/pulse-shooting-survivor-angel-santiago-recovery\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">Pulse nightclub shooting<\/a>. It involved going way beyond what was on the page to what was possible. I think all of those things made them comfortable that I was a conceivable possibility for that job. Even so, I still had a lot to learn once I got to ProPublica.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>Reporters obviously have their own clips to show, though a lot of people have touched that copy before it sees the light of day. I imagine an editing portfolio is different because you take rough copy and shape it into something else. Is showing before-and-after drafts typically what you were asked to do? How common is that, and how do you show where you took a story from conception to actualization?<br><\/strong>Now I\u2019m part of hiring committees at ProPublica, and a big part of what we do is really try to figure this out. We want a memo to get a sense of how they someone as an editor. We also will give them early drafts of stories that need work and say, \u2018What would you do with this?\u2019 We ask folks to not look at the published version and also tell them that there are many ways to edit a story, so the published way may not be the only way. We\u2019re looking for people to essentially go beyond the line edit and look for those very big picture issues \u2014 things that might need more reporting, things that might indicate a flaw in the logic. Those tests are very important in hiring editors. Then we try to talk to way more people than the references they offer up \u2014 former editors, former reporters they\u2019ve worked with \u2014 to get a really good sense of what their skills are and where they need to grow.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>When it comes to editing narrative, how would you describe the essential ingredients for strong chemistry between a writer and an editor?<br><\/strong>It\u2019s the exact same when editing narrative as it is for editing traditional investigative reporting: two people who trust each other. Trust is the bedrock of the relationship between a reporter and an editor. I need to trust that the stuff that you\u2019re telling me is true. I need to trust that you are telling me when you don\u2019t have something and why you don\u2019t have something. You need to trust that I care about you, the story and your growth, and that we\u2019re on the same team. You need to trust that I\u2019m letting you know when I\u2019m not 100% sure of something.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>How do you build that trust?<br><\/strong>It\u2019s really important for people to see me as myself and for them to feel comfortable. I admit my own vulnerabilities. I\u2019m very much myself. I don\u2019t have highbrow tastes. I am kind of a dork. On a story ProPublica reporter&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.propublica.org\/people\/lizzie-presser\">Lizzie Presser<\/a>, I told her for&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/features.propublica.org\/covid-dialysis\/for-years-jamarcus-crews-tried-to-get-a-new-kidney-but-corporate-healthcare-stood-in-the-way\/\">one story she was doing<\/a>, I made her watch \u201cThe Matrix.\u201d When reporters were working on an&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.propublica.org\/article\/asbestos-poisoning-chemical-plant-niagara-falls\">asbestos story<\/a>,&nbsp;I made watch \u201cJurassic Park\u201d because their story reminded me so much of it. I will seriously say the first thing that pops into my head.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>I want them to feel as free as I feel when I\u2019m talking out loud about a story. I\u2019m asking them stupid questions that come into my head and making them explain simple concepts that I don\u2019t understand. I want them to feel comfortable arguing with me if they think I\u2019m wrong, because sometimes I am. I want them to know that if I\u2019m arguing with them, it\u2019s not just because I\u2019m the boss \u2014 it\u2019s because I think I\u2019m right.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-pullquote mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\"><blockquote><p>It\u2019s the exact same when editing narrative as it is for editing traditional investigative reporting: two people who trust each other.<\/p><\/blockquote><\/figure>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>If I want reporters to do some needle-in-a-haystack kind of thing to find something, they\u2019ll do it because they\u2019ll trust that it\u2019s for them, it\u2019s for the story and I want them to succeed. Even reporters like Lizzie, who are way better writers than me, the trust we have in each other is so strong that sometimes she would get me a draft and I had an idea for maybe a lede, or a section hed, or something I wanted her to try out. I would write a fake version of it. I wasn\u2019t writing over her; it was essentially me writing to give her an idea. The process is very iterative. It\u2019s very egoless. This is not a situation where we\u2019re fighting over word choice and commas. We start very big, very conceptual, very structural. I tell them, \u2018Don\u2019t even worry about the words at this point.\u2019 The structure has to be right, the pacing has to be right, your voice is going to be in it \u2014 but right now, let\u2019s work together on the very best possible framework for this thing.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>On structure and pacing, how do you practice fine-tuning that sensibility and honing those instincts?<br><\/strong>Exposure to really good storytelling. I see stories everywhere and I pay attention to how they\u2019re told. Not just the great journalistic pieces that we see in writing, but movies; and not just the highbrow movies, but popcorn movies. A well-told Taylor Swift song. You can learn about storytelling from the stories that are all around us. I absorb and really pay attention to what works about them.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>For instance, I was just watching \u201cKarate Kid\u201d with my girls and&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.google.com\/search?q=karate+kid+final+fight&amp;rlz=1C1CHZL_enUS825US825&amp;oq=karate+kid+final+&amp;gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIHCAIQABiABDIHCAMQABiABDIHCAQQABiABDIHCAUQABiABDIHCAYQABiABDIHCAcQABiABDIHCAgQABiABDIHCAkQABiABKgCALACAA&amp;sourceid=chrome&amp;ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&amp;vld=cid:99f5d603,vid:j7_L3w4vOJk,st:0\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">that final fight scene<\/a>&nbsp;serves as a great example of pacing. It takes about four minutes from the moment the fight starts to the moment Daniel delivers that iconic, one-legged kick. And that kick lands with so much more resonance because of the way those four minutes are drawn out. There are beats that establish Daniel\u2019s growth as a fighter, those that show how much is stacked against him, those that step up the suffering he has to overcome.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>If you watch that scene knowing there\u2019s a final blow coming, you understand why it doesn\u2019t come earlier in those four minutes. You don\u2019t want it to come before you\u2019ve given enough oxygen to each of those important dimensions, but you also don\u2019t want to belabor any one of them. By the time Daniel sets up for that final kick with that wild look in his eyes, that catharsis is earned.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>You mentioned that your process starts fairly high-level. If you were going from the starting point to the end of your process \u2014 when you\u2019re conceptualizing the story to when you\u2019re getting the draft to applying polish at the end \u2014 what do you do first?<br><\/strong>Story choice is essential. The writer and I will weigh the benefit of doing a story. For investigative journalism, they need to have an angle that reflects accountability for somebody or something, and there has to be a problem that can be impacted by the story. The big questions are: Who\u2019s being harmed? How bad is that harm? What does that harm look like? What\u2019s the scope of the problem?<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>The vast majority of investigative stories should not be narratives. Narratives should be reserved only for the stories that would be best served by that medium. I think too many people see narrative as better than a traditional investigative report. I don\u2019t think one is any better than the other; I think you allow the investigative findings to dictate how you\u2019re going to tell the story. Some stories are clearly better served by narratives than traditional investigative reports: ones in which you have deep access to people, or enough reconstructive material from documents or interviews that you can vividly reconstruct it. It has to be a tale that can carry a reader throughout its multiple chapters, where every chapter not only advances the plot, but also advances the points and serves the findings. This is a really high bar for even choosing to do an investigative narrative. It has to meet all those marks. Feasibility is also a big thing. Are we going to get that access? How are we going to do it?<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>I am very much a partner in the reporter\u2019s reporting process. I\u2019m encouraging them through all possible barriers. I help them think through public records requests or how to handle a first approach for a source \u2014 all different kinds of reporting strategies. We\u2019re regularly checking in about progress. As a reporter, they are in the weeds. My job is to maintain a high-altitude perspective so that I can be asking all those big picture questions: Do we have enough of what we need? How does this next reporting task serve us in a bigger way? Sometimes, a reporter might get discouraged after striking out with something or learn about a caveat and think there\u2019s no story. Having the editor as that independent brain is essential, because it\u2019s like, \u2018Actually, in the big picture, the problem still remains, right?\u2019 I remind them of how outraged they were about this problem at the very beginning and about the things that excited them when a few months down the road, they\u2019ve sort of become accustomed and desensitized to it.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-pullquote mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\"><blockquote><p>I am very much a partner in the reporter\u2019s reporting process. I\u2019m encouraging them through all possible barriers.<\/p><\/blockquote><\/figure>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>At the ProPublica editor boot camp, I hand out a multi-page list of logical fallacies. I ask all the editors and reporters to circle all the ones they\u2019ve seen or been guilty of \u2014 and it\u2019s all of them, right? A big part of being an editor is psychology and spotting those behaviors, like putting too much emphasis on something because it\u2019s the most recent thing they got or was harder to get. I\u2019m a stand-in for the reader. I let them know when something excites me and encourage them to lean into that. I also egg them on when something\u2019s hard.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>When I was working on \u2018In God\u2019s Name,\u2019 I had to do stuff that made me really anxious, like trying to get into abusive homes. Being able to have a pregame discussion with Chris Davis, then call him afterwards and tell him what I did, was a huge motivator for me. Being that coach and motivator for my reporters \u2014 caring as much about it as they do \u2014 is the job. And then we get ready to write. But we don\u2019t wait until the first draft to start writing.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>What do you mean by that?<br><\/strong>There might be some memos along the way that we write about what the story is, what we\u2019ve got so far, what we think we could get if we report a little bit more. That\u2019s a very low stakes, low pressure way for writers to start digesting their reporting and put in some of the best bits that they\u2019ve got without worrying about the writing part of it. It\u2019s about digesting and thinking on the page. I have them write character thumbnails to flesh out who the different people are that they\u2019ve talked to. I have them write chronologies and findings. Even for somebody writing a narrative investigation, I still have them write bullet points that are never going find their way into print. But we need to know the sharpest version of what our investigation found so that we can convey those findings in the clearest and most authoritative way. All of those writing exercises happen well before the first draft.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>I would imagine that at a place like ProPublica, where projects span many months, this kind of digestion and metabolizing as you go is important. In my own experience as a reporter, the fresher and the closer you are to the material, the better \u2014 but these projects take a long time, by definition.<br><\/strong>Even if you\u2019re working on something quick, jotting down your findings and putting together an outline before you start drafting is essential. It saves you time on the back end. The saying goes, \u2018Measure twice, cut once.\u2019 With the outline, I want the writer to share the material they\u2019ve got \u2014 not just one sentence for each chapter. I want to know what material is going to go in the chapter so I can become as familiar as possible with it. Maybe the chapter should be ordered in a different way, but I wouldn\u2019t know that unless I knew what the material was.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Then comes the draft. First, I look at the draft for content. What more reporting do we need that would make it stronger? Are we making the points we think we\u2019re making? Are we making them as clearly as we want to make them? Big picture, what is the structure that could best serve this story? Then, even when we get down to the writing part, I don\u2019t worry about the specific words until later. I really care about pacing. Then we zero in and zero in and zero in.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-pullquote mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<figure class=\"wp-block-pullquote\"><blockquote><p>We start from zoomed out to way zoomed in on detail.<\/p><\/blockquote><\/figure>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>What qualities do you think help someone shine in an editing role?<br><\/strong>You have to have emotional intelligence. You have to be able to not only worry about the story at hand, but also the person you\u2019re working with and get a good read on them \u2014 how they work, what they need. Every individual writer needs something different from an editor and you have to be flexible enough and intuitive enough to give somebody specifically what they need.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>There are different kinds of editors that I\u2019ve seen be successful. I\u2019m more of an optimistic Ted Lasso style, cheering people on. I\u2019ve seen really prosecutorial, pessimistic editors who are fantastic. There\u2019s so many different kinds of personalities and also different personalities of reporters. Each editor has to be flexible enough to find \u2014 within their own style \u2014 what works for a reporter.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>We start from zoomed out to way zoomed in on detail.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>Also, the editor needs to be somebody who cares about the story and is enthusiastic about it. Somebody who isn\u2019t just optimistic, but is comfortable enough to speak their mind when a story isn\u2019t working. As optimistic and gung-ho as I am, my reporters always know exactly when I don\u2019t get something, I don\u2019t like something, something is not working out for me or I\u2019m not as excited about something as they are. It\u2019s really important to be forthcoming, honest and not shy about expressing that, because then your reporter is not going to feel comfortable expressing how they feel.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>You mentioned that ProPublica has an editing bootcamp. What are some other roles or resources you\u2019d recommend to reporters who want to edit?<br><\/strong>I am leading an&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.poynter.org\/shop\/reporting-editing\/will-work-for-impact-fundamentals-of-investigative-journalism-2024\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">online group seminar through Poynter<\/a>&nbsp;on investigative narrative in September, which is open for enrollment. We\u2019ll talk a lot about the fundamentals of investigative journalism and reporting, but there\u2019s part of it about storytelling that I think could be really useful to people looking to get into editing. And things like this conversation. I read Nieman Storyboard all the time \u2014 those story annotations are helpful in understanding how things come together. Or going to something like the&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.ire.org\/training\/conferences\/ire-2024\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">IRE conference<\/a>. At least from my perspective, when it comes to investigative editing, it helps to have a facility with reporting to understand how you can get the best material is as important as understanding how to craft a good story.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>There was a&nbsp;<a href=\"https:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2024\/04\/23\/opinion\/ezra-klein-podcast-adam-moss.html\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">recent interview on Ezra Klein\u2019s podcast<\/a>, with legendary magazine editor Adam Moss, that was one of the best discussions I\u2019ve ever heard about the editing craft. After hearing it, we bought Moss\u2019 new book, \u2018<a href=\"https:\/\/www.penguinrandomhouse.com\/books\/669522\/the-work-of-art-by-adam-moss\/\" target=\"_blank\" rel=\"noreferrer noopener\">The Work of Art: How Something Comes From Nothing<\/a>\u2019 for all of our editor training participants.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>It can be hard to build the experience or reputation you\u2019re talking about if you are a freelancer. What are some ways to strengthen skills in terms of questions like, \u2018Should this be a story? What meets the bar of what we should be assigning? How should we think about how this idea relates to the broader picture in the news?\u2019<br><\/strong>I think freelancers actually develop the skill a lot more quickly because they have to have a well-honed pitch and frame it well in order for it to get assigned. They learn through the cold, hard feedback of acceptance or rejection and learn to get really good at pitching if they are to survive as freelancers. I have found that the people I\u2019ve worked with \u2014 like Lizzie Presser, for example \u2014 who came up as freelancers really had to, by necessity, develop that skill of proving out the premise of a story when pitching it. Trying to get feedback for why stories are accepted or rejected is helpful.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>What has surprised you most the most about this path and what it entails?<br><\/strong>It surprised me at first how hard it was. The tough thing \u2014 especially as a reporter who was used to going out and getting the exact answer to the exact question I had \u2014 is that someone else is out there in the world processing information and bringing it back to you. You\u2019re one step removed. Your idea of a story as it is coming together might be different from what the reporter sees when they\u2019re out in the field. Being able to interpret the world from one step removed is an adjustment. In some cases, this is why editors exist; you need that independent perspective. It\u2019s an adjustment to rely on the reporter\u2019s interpretation, though it\u2019s something I\u2019ve grown to really love.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><strong>You\u2019ve risen up the ranks at ProPublica. How have your responsibilities as an editor changed as you\u2019ve shifted from senior editor to assistant managing editor, and now to deputy managing editor? In particular, how has your relationship to the stories themselves changed as you\u2019ve been promoted?<br><\/strong>Senior editors only work with reporters. I had between five and seven I worked with directly. Each of them had a body of work for the year and we went through that entire process for all of our stories. Then as an assistant managing editor, I kept my reporter load but I was also asked to think more systemically about how things were done at ProPublica, like making sure that the most important projects had the resources they needed.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>As deputy managing editor, I led a restructure of our visuals department and hired our first ever senior editor for visual storytelling. He is responsible for all of the photography, illustrations, graphics, design and film. Part of my portfolio now is managing those folks. I also have a couple of senior editors under me and talk to them about their stories. I dip in enough and am familiar enough with the material so that if I have a reporting or storytelling idea, I can suggest it as early as possible.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>With every step, unfortunately, I have lost direct work with reporters, but I\u2019m clinging for dear life to the last two who I edit. I love reporters more than anything else. I honestly cannot picture a day where I\u2019m not editing reporters.<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p>***<\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-classic mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n    \n    <div class=\"  core-block\">\n        <div class=\"block block--core block--core-paragraph mb-5   max-w-screen-full mx-auto\">\n            \n<p><em><strong>Carly Stern<\/strong>&nbsp;is an award-winning enterprise journalist based in San Francisco who covers health, housing and economic security.<\/em><\/p>\n\n        <\/div>\n    <\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>For the ProPublica deputy managing editor Alexandra Zayas, emotional intelligence is as important as journalistic craft skills<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":11363,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[7],"tags":[],"topics":[],"authors":[8],"issue":[],"class_list":["post-11360","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-5-questions","authors-carly-stern"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v27.5 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/product\/yoast-seo-wordpress\/ -->\n<title>Effective editing: Trust and Ted Lasso-style cheerleading - Nieman Storyboard<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" 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