{"id":11390,"date":"2024-07-25T17:17:06","date_gmt":"2024-07-25T17:17:06","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/07\/25\/interviews-narrative-nonfiction-cinematic-scenes-details\/"},"modified":"2025-10-13T23:40:58","modified_gmt":"2025-10-13T23:40:58","slug":"interviews-narrative-nonfiction-cinematic-scenes-details","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/07\/25\/interviews-narrative-nonfiction-cinematic-scenes-details\/","title":{"rendered":"The art of the narrative interview: Filling in scenic details"},"content":{"rendered":" \n
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EDITOR\u2019S NOTE: The final post in our series on narrative interviewing explores how a reporter focuses in on the cinematic details that create compelling scenes. <\/em>Previous posts outlined the difference between reporting for news and for narrative<\/a>, the pre-interviewing needed<\/a> to find a character and make a successful story pitch, the interview that outlines a story arc<\/a><\/em> and sequencing scenes<\/a> to build a structure.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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The last major phase of interviewing for narrative usually occurs just before (or precisely when) I\u2019m ready to sit down and write. My story is solid. I know my central character and the arc of the story\u2019s journey. I\u2019ve identified pivotal moments and structure in mind. Now I need to fill in those scenes with detail and movement. I\u2019ve chosen the pivotal moments worthy of cinematic scenes.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Before we talk about interviewing for scenes, though, we have to talk about structure, because structure informs which pivotal moments should be developed into scenes.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cStory structure\u201d is one of those abstract terms that I struggled for years to articulate to my students, some of whom had trouble grasping it as something other than a formula. I finally settled on my own definition: A deliberate sequence of revelation. Another way to think of it: What you let the reader know \u2014 and when.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Not all writers believe in creating an outline before sitting down to write. I don\u2019t like the term outline, because it triggers traumatic memories of Roman numeral outlines wrung out of us in middle school. I prefer the idea of a story map. It might look like a flow chart, a paper-napkin sketch or a screenwriter\u2019s storyboard, which contains a sequence of drawings, usually with dialogue and a bit of stage direction, representing different shots and camera angles.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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An outline of scenes and details scribbled inside a manila folder for a story by Kim Cross.<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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Here\u2019s Gay Talese\u2019s story map for \u201cFrank Sinatra Has a Cold,\u201d<\/a> one of the most famous profiles in the history of feature writing:<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I can\u2019t speak to Talese\u2019s use of color coding or geometry, but clearly this is a deliberate blueprint that speaks to how the author\u2019s mind works. (He famously cut shirtboards into quarters and rounded the corners so they\u2019d fit in his pocket for note-taking. He also used them for story outlines.)<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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It helps some of my students to think of a narrative as a necklace strung with scenes, summary and exposition. Scenes capture a specific moment in time when something pivotal happens in a story; time is often running at a normal pace, and the use of imagery, action and dialogue let the story play out in the reader\u2019s mind like a movie. Summary compresses time and transitions the reader from scene to scene, often connoting cause and effect. Exposition is like a narrative pause button, a brief diversion from the story to explain something the reader must know to fully understand the meaning of the scene they just saw or the scene that\u2019s about to happen.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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The art of the narrative interview<\/h2>\n\n
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Introduction:\u00a0News interviews vs story interviews<\/a><\/p>\n

Phase I:\u00a0Pre-interviewing for the pitch<\/a><\/p>\n

Phase II: Interviewing for story arc<\/a><\/p>\n

Phase III: Interviewing for sequence<\/a><\/p>\n

Phase IV: Interviewing for scene<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n\t\n<\/div> \n

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The more you can stay in scene, the more the story immerses the reader, like a movie or a great novel. Summary allows you to speed things up to get to the next great scene; it often includes some backstory \u2014 prior events or key context. And exposition reveals why it matters and what it means; these are often the lovely literary pearls that get underlined and quoted or made into memes.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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In my classes and workshops, I have students write a bullet-point version of each scene on an individual 3\u00d75 notecard. They might also make a notecard for something technical that needs to be explained (exposition) or a bit of summary or backstory. I first ask them to place the notecards on the floor in chronological order. After snapping a photo to record this sequence, I ask them to pick a scene that\u2019s not the first one, but has particular drama, tension or meaning. Then I ask them to reorder the notecards, prioritizing the most pivotal moments and considering others as possible flashbacks. This often reveals a new structure that they had previously never considered.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Here\u2019s how one of my book proposals began:<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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How nonfiction author Kim Cross organizes a book proposal. Kim Cross<\/small><\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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Filling in scenic details<\/h2>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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The way my brain works, I need to reach this point before going back to the character (for the Nth time) to do what I call \u201cinterviewing for scene.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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At this phase of the process, the questions get very granular. I start interrupting and saying, Wait. Let\u2019s back up. Do you mean\u2026?<\/em> As the character is speaking, I\u2019m constantly pressing for more specificity. More detail. The more concrete the detail, the more crisp the image in the reader\u2019s mind.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Here\u2019s a bit of an interview transcript for \u201cIn Light of All Darkness,\u201d<\/a> where I\u2019m trying to get a play-by-play from an FBI agent, the Evidence Response Team member who lifted a partial palm print from Polly Klaas\u2019s bunkbed frame using the then-brand-new technology of fluorescent powder and Alternate Light Source (forensic light).<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Q:    So you\u2019re dusting Polly\u2019s bed frame with fluorescent powder. In one interview, you said \u201corange.\u201d In another you said \u201cred.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    They call it REDWOP, but it\u2019s a fluorescent orange.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    Because REDWOP is \u201cpowder\u201d spelled backwards, right?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    Yes.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    So you scanned the whole room with the (forensic) light before you put on any powder?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    I would have done an overall scan of the room. Then I would have gone to the target I was looking at, which was the bed.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    Why was that the target?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    That was an object that was doable. And it was within arm\u2019s reach of the suspect. Proximity. So I went close to the floor and I did test patterns with different powders.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    Are you talking about the bottom of the bed frame?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    Down by the floor, at the bottom, where I knew the suspect could not have touched.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    By \u201cbottom\u201d do you mean the horizontal piece of wood along the mattress? Or the vertical leg of the bed frame?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    It was on the vertical leg.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    And were you wearing goggles?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    I was.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    So you first would have turned off the lights, right?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    Yes.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    Would you have closed the door?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    Correct. I needed as much total darkness as I could get. The darker the room, the better the light fluoresces.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I later realized that it looks a lot like the trial transcripts I was reading, in which a trial lawyer is examining a witness on the stand. In a way, the lawyer and the reporter have a similar objective: elicit a narrative with such crisp detail that a jury member, or reader, can imagine it vividly.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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As the character is speaking, I\u2019m trying to see what they are seeing on the silver screen of memory. My friend and fellow narrative journalist Bronwen Dickey<\/a> likes to say, \u201cPretend I\u2019m a GoPro.\u201d I like to see not only what the character is seeing in that moment, but also understand what they\u2019re thinking about it. I hunt for internal dialogue.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Q:    What was it about REDWOP that worked better? Could you describe what the green looked like, and what you were not seeing that you wanted to see?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    With the green, there was not enough reflective material on the bed. It did not define for my eyes any fingerprints at all.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    So then what did the REDWOP look like?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    I could see a palm print. I could see fingerprints. I could see residue from the black powder used by the police department. I could see smudges. My difficulty was that the palm print I saw was over a round disc, which was plastic. Normally, powder will adhere to plastic but not to wood.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Q:    Is there a word that pops into your head when you\u2019re like, \u201cThat\u2019s it!\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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A:    I would normally just say, \u201cOh my!\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I\u2019m constantly pressing for more specificity \u2014 for telling details and concrete imagery low on the Ladder of Abstraction<\/a>. Evidence, you say? What kind of evidence? Fingerprints? Which hand? Which finger? Was it a loop, an arch, or a whorl?<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Some people are more visually inclined than others. Some have better vocabularies or ways of describing a scene. I ask my story characters if they have photos, videos, text messages or other visual aids. If we flip through a photo album, I\u2019ll point to certain objects, hoping to unearth a telling detail. (A \u201ctelling detail\u201d is something that reveals character, yields insight or advances the narrative; it\u2019s more than a bit of scenery.) If I need to take the reader inside a house that no longer exists, I\u2019ll ask them to draw me a floor plan.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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As the scene starts to come together in my mind, I\u2019ll plumb it for meaning and try to see it through a particular Point of View. (The best definition of POV came from my son when he was in fifth grade: \u201cIt means, \u2018Whose head are you in?\u2019\u201d). I try to write a scene through the Point of View of only one character in that scene to avoid what I think of as \u201chead hopping.\u201d) To do that, I need to get inside that character\u2019s head. Some of my favorite questions for doing so are:<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What did that look like?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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How so?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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What do you mean?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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How did that feel?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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Why do you think that is?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Fact-checking as a final interview<\/h2>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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The last phase of my narrative interviewing process is calling up the character and reading them scenes I\u2019ve written in their particular point of view. This is my way of fact-checking all the assumptions and interpretations involved in using my vocabulary to describe someone else\u2019s experience. Did the language I chose accurately represent what they saw and felt and thought?<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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I know I\u2019ve done my job if they find it not only accurate, but true. <\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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What’s the outcome of that work? You can read the passage from the book here<\/a>. <\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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* * *<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Kim Cross<\/em><\/strong> is a journalist, historian and author of three nonfiction books, including \u201cIn Light of All Darkness.\u201d She teaches feature writing for Harvard Extension School\u2019s master\u2019s degree program in journalism and is a founding instructor of the Hemingway Center\u2019s <\/em>Sawtooth Writing Retreat<\/em><\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

A last phase of interviewing is to gather the details that create cinematic scenes written with a distinct POV and camera lens<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":1,"featured_media":11395,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[424],"topics":[],"authors":[287],"issue":[],"class_list":["post-11390","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-essays-on-craft","tag-narrative-interviewing","authors-kim-cross"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"\nThe art of the narrative interview: Filling in scenic details - Nieman Storyboard<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2024\/07\/25\/interviews-narrative-nonfiction-cinematic-scenes-details\/\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" 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