{"id":2422,"date":"2023-05-08T12:00:12","date_gmt":"2023-05-08T12:00:12","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2023\/05\/08\/podcast-journalism-indigenous-reporting-interviewing-ethics\/"},"modified":"2025-02-14T18:39:51","modified_gmt":"2025-02-14T18:39:51","slug":"podcast-journalism-indigenous-reporting-interviewing-ethics","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/niemanstoryboard.org\/2023\/05\/08\/podcast-journalism-indigenous-reporting-interviewing-ethics\/","title":{"rendered":"A true crime podcast that is more about truth than crime"},"content":{"rendered":" \n
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EDITOR\u2019S NOTE: \u201cThe Best Audio Storytelling: 2022<\/a>\u201d is a newly released audiobook compendium of English-language nonfiction. The collection\u2019s curator, Julia Barton of Pushkin Industries, spoke with creators of work in the collection about their storytelling choices and challenges. This is the third  of four posts that revive \u201cAudio Danger,\u201d Barton\u2019s Storyboard series on podcasting published a decade ago. The first installment,  posted last week, updates the status of podcasting as a journalistic form<\/a>. The second analyzes a podcast about the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the U.S. Capitol<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Open the Apple Podcasts U.S. \u201ctop shows\u201d list on any given day, and you will encounter the strangest magazine stand. The most popular shows, in terms of new subscribers, are usually a mix of news, religion or self-help, comedy, and \u2014 by far the biggest genre \u2014 true crime. There are series about murder, of course, but also deceit, sexual assault, terrorism, corruption. As long as someone\u2019s doing something bad, it seems, the listeners of America\u00a0can\u2019t get enough of it<\/a>.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Just as established as true crime\u2019s huge popularity has been the backlash against it, especially in audio, which until a decade ago, had no tabloid-style genre. Documentaries<\/a>, parodies<\/a>, think-pieces<\/a> all point to an ethical queasiness about shows that seem to repackage human suffering into addictive (not to mention commercially lucrative) entertainment. And sometimes that ethical queasiness has real-world repercussions.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cThis is not a podcast for me,\u201d Young Lee told a Maryland appeals court on March 28. Lee\u2019s sister, Hae Min Lee, had been murdered in Baltimore in 1999. The eventual murder conviction of her boyfriend Adnan Syed did not make national news until the podcast \u201cSerial<\/a>\u201d dug up and questioned the case in 2014. Eventually, Syed\u2019s murder conviction was dismissed<\/a> \u2014 but in a move that\u2019s now roiling the criminal justice world, Syed\u2019s charge has been reinstated after Young Lee\u2019s objections.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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And \u201cSerial\u2019s\u201d popularity could well have been a factor in the decision. According to The New York Times<\/a>, Lee\u2019s voice wavered as he talked about the case: \u201cThis is not a podcast for me. This is real life. A never-ending nightmare for 20-plus years.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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It\u2019s worth noting that in a post right here on Nieman Storyboard,<\/a> soon after \u201cSerial\u201d launched in 2014, the creators of the show expressed their own concerns. They said were caught off guard by the podcast\u2019s runaway success, and even more by its rabid fanbase of amateur online sleuths trying to \u201csolve\u201d the murder.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201c(Our sources) are real people with families and lives, who have trusted me with their information or with their anonymity, and so it makes it nervous. It makes me really nervous,\u201d said \u201cSerial\u201d host Sarah Koenig.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Making ethical issues part of the story<\/h2>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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It\u2019s one thing to say that podcasters should confront the ethics of what they do. It\u2019s another thing to hear them being confronted on tape and changing trajectory as a result. For me these days, the best true crime podcasts are the ones that confront their ethical issues head on and use the energy of that confrontation to make their stories better. That\u2019s a big reason why I admire the Gimlet\/Spotify series \u201cStolen: Surviving St. Michaels,\u201d and in particular its third episode, \u201cDon\u2019t Play with This<\/a>.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\"Podcast
Connie Walker<\/figcaption><\/figure>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/div> \n
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The host and lead reporter of \u201cStolen\u201d is Connie Walker, a longtime veteran of CBC television and radio. Walker\u2019s past reporting includes the series \u201cMissing and Murdered<\/a>,\u201d about crimes against indigenous Canadians. But this time, she turned to her own family\u2019s history \u2014 in particular, the long shadow of Canada\u2019s religious residential school system<\/a> for indigenous children, a system that the country\u2019s government has now admitted was a form of \u201ccultural genocide.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Walker herself did not attend residential school growing up in Okenase First Nation in Sasketchewan. But her late father, Howard Cameron, attended a large institution called St. Michael\u2019s, a school in Duck Lake run by Catholic priests. He never talked about his experiences there with his daughter. But Walker says that after the discovery in 2021 of a mass grave<\/a> at one of the Canada\u2019s largest residential schools, she began seeing an outpouring of stories from older family and tribal members about the abuse they had endured at St. Michael\u2019s. So she returned home to interview those relatives, and to understand more about her father, from whom she\u2019d been largely been estranged growing up.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Letting listeners in on the reporting process<\/h2>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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The second season of \u201cStolen<\/a>\u201d follows Walker\u2019s quest to understand her father\u2019s past and her own. At the start of the third episode, we hear a remarkable archival film, a documentary set at St. Michael\u2019s in 1967. (The school has since closed). In the film, former students confront one of the priests, Father Anthony Duhaime.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cFather, we heard people stand up here and say they were beaten if they spoke their native tongue,\u201d a man\u2019s voice says.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n\n\n \n

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\u201cYeah, but that\u2019s one fact against the other,\u201d the priest retorts. \u201cWhat does it prove? Nothing.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Walker\u2019s father is not in the film, but by now she suspects one of the priests abused him. She\u2019s on a quest to find out the man\u2019s name and whether he\u2019s still alive. She heads to the local library and finds that one of the possible suspects, the man in the film, has already died. But she finds a strange profile piece about another of the priests, someone her uncle had accused of sexually abusing him as a child.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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In the article, the priest talks blithely about visiting a local penitentiary and confessing: \u201cMaybe I should be in here also, but I never got caught.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cThe article gives almost no context for the quote,\u201d Walker narrates, \u201cBut I\u2019m shocked to read it. I don\u2019t know what he meant, but it\u2019s the kind of thing I can\u2019t just ignore.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Although this series is more personal than Walker\u2019s other investigative podcasts, up until this point she\u2019s been employing what I call \u201cNancy Drew mode:\u201d the storyteller following a trail of clues. Nancy Drew mode works really well in the linear form of audio, as our minds naturally want to connect what we just heard with the next piece of information. It\u2019s a big reason why true crime audio stories can be compelling and addictive. And Walker\u2019s clear, simple narration style \u2014 honed from years of news reporting \u2014 makes the story easy to follow. One new discovery leads to the next without digression or confusion.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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More from Audio Danger revived<\/h2>\n\n
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The state of podcast storytelling<\/a><\/p>\n

A podcast from inside the Capitol insurrection<\/a><\/p>\n

Podcast narratives come of age<\/a><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n\t\n<\/div> \n

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Walker also employs a trope that \u201cSerial\u201d made popular: the reporter-team field debrief. We hear as she calls her producers from her car to tell them what she\u2019s found in the library. One suspect might still be alive, she tells them, but before approaching him, she wants to talk with one of St. Michael\u2019s more outspoken survivors. A man named Eugene Arcand.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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And it\u2019s here that the episode takes a turn. Arcand, an advisor to Canada\u2019s National Truth and Reconciliation Centre<\/a>, is a busy guy with only a little time for an interview. But sitting on the patio of a local Starbucks, he tells Walker frankly about the abuse he\u2019d endured, and how he\u2019d once confronted the very priest she\u2019d been researching, calling him a \u201csick pig\u201d and threatening to throw him off a balcony.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Then Arcand tries warns her off her quest.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cI see people thinking they\u2019re doing good when they\u2019re not doing good. We don\u2019t want to just be interviewed, and then somebody takes off with it and becomes an expert on the backs of our misery,\u201d he says.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Looking back on this moment later, Walker tells me she was stunned. \u201cI had been so motivated by wanting to seek some kind of accountability and to try to find out as much as I could. To hear him say that was really jarring.\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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In the episode, Arcand goes to recount words of an elder who spoke to him in Cree, warning him that the stories of residential school survivors belong to the community:<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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\u201cThis is what we have learned,\u201d Arcand quotes the man as saying. \u201cWe don\u2019t profiteer from it. We take care of it, where we have to pass it down. But use this in a good way. Don\u2019t play with this, you know?\u201d<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n<\/blockquote>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Letting the reporting shift the narrative<\/h2>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n
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The episode lets us hear almost all of Walker\u2019s intense encounter with Eugene Arcand. And it gives us the rare chance to hear a subject reshape the trajectory of a true crime narrative. Walker says after she spoke with Arcand, she asked her immediate family if she should even pursue the story further. Ultimately, her younger brothers convinced her that they, too, needed to understand what had happened to their father. It was their story as well, because it had shaped their lives.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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In the following episode, Walker and her fellow producers change course. They interview 28 survivors of St. Michael\u2019s \u2014 many of whom had never told their stories publicly before. It is painful to hear how they were abused, their childhoods stolen and culture repressed. It takes a brave, persistent and thoughtful journalist and production team to seek out these voices and handle them with care. When true crime is based more on truth than crime, the results can be powerful.<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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* * *<\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n \n

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Julia Barton<\/strong> is the executive editor of Pushkin Industries, following a long career in public radio. She helped develop \u201cRevisionist History\u201d and \u201cAgainst the Rules,\u201d among other chart-topping shows.<\/em><\/p>\n\n <\/div>\n <\/div>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

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